Too true, unfortunately!

Logical thinking? I can point out several fallacies in this argument.

 Regarding the "murder" agreement, most scientists and doctors agree that life begins at birth, not conception. Therefore, an abortion wouldn't qualify for the definition of murder. However, allowing a woman to die by refusing to give her an abortion when her life is threatened would qualify. 

 I completely agree. I think the real debate is not 'whether or not abortion should be legal' but rather 'when is someone considered alive'. 

 I was 22. 

It's true that many women may have an abortion regardless of it being illegal, but we cannot support and give tax payers money to this cause. This is where religion and the government cannot be seperate because it is against many religion and moral values to provide support for abortions. The government is putting our taxes towards family planning.

Also the text about not providing women birth control, is that really an issue? You can go to the docter and they will provide you with a sample box for a month.


The women getting the abortions are most likely not using it for rape according to statistics already provided. If it is in fact true that it is murdering children to have an abortion this is a big mistake and anyone religous can understand how devastating it would be to have that on your soul. This is not to mention the tramatic effects that will occur to the woman having the abortion.


If abortion is just a simple medical task than why do so many women become depressed?

Is this really better for woman's health?

To your comment on using government funds for abortion:

I am a Buddhist, a pacifist.  My tax money is used every bit as much as yours is to fund our foreign wars.  My money is used to by the drones that accidentally kill innocents by the dozens.

I can handle this burden because I am willing to believe that the money that I contribue to the public fund is used wisely, and fairly.

I realize that sometimes war must happen in order to protect the lives of innocents.  Hopefully you can see that sometimes abortion is necessary to preserve the life of those already living.

Seriously, I'm a parent.  An Alcoholic in recovery.  Been out there as a teenager, having sex since I was 14, and moved out on my own when I was 16.  The bottom line though, none of it matters....  even when I was 14 i would have told you, Don't have sex unless you're willing to deal with the consequences.  That is, if you get preggo's, then you have that baby, and you work your ass off to take care of it. 

I'll tell the same damn thing to my kids when they get older.  Men/boys got it easy... but girls... that's where the responsibility comes in.  There's all kinds of shit you can get from sex.  The herp!  You can't abort that shit!! That's for life... kinda how kids are supposed to be.  For life.

 I appreciate your practical and straightforward stance on this issue. There is not enough emphasis on personal responsibility these days.

what that boy did was dispicable. but putting yourself in those situations is a gamble. if you value your empty womb, then dont go into places that jeapordize that.the guy is a monster, but why was it so easy? why is it so simple for a guy to get away with rape? if girls would think about consequences before they act, less of that would happen. pregnancy is not the punishment for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, it's a miracle perverted by the choices we make under those circumstances.

if you lay with dogs, youre going to get fleas. if you go in the dog house, not only will you stink, but one of em is bound to hump your leg. so rather than worry about the problems you picked up from the mutts, why not stay out of the doghouse??!!

why are we bottle feeding people? if they are old enough to have sex, old enough to drink, old enough to make decisions like going to parties/clubs, why arent they old enough to raise a kid? if they cant handle the horns they shouldnt instigate bulls.

So, you decided to go out to a party and get drunk. Yay for you. And then you made the mistake of having sex. Yes, it happens. Especially when you are drunk. So, you got pregnant, of course. And, since, of course, none of it was your fault, *cough cough* you decided that you didn’t deserve the consequences of your actions. You didn’t want all the people in your high school to make fun of you, call you a whore, etc. You thought that you didn’t deserve to have those things happen to you, because, of course, it wasn’t your fault that you got pregnant. All you did was go to a party and get drunk while underage. How dare anyone blame you for those things? And so, you decided to get an abortion. Now, let’s pretend that the child really is just a bunch of cells. And now let’s pretend that those bunch of cells didn’t get removed from your body. You would probably be given dirty looks. People would have called you a slut, prostitute, etc. The horror. But, after 9 months, a baby would be born. After a few years, the child, (let’s name the child Alex. That’s a nice, omnigender name.) After a few years, Alex would go to preschool. Alex would make friends. A couple of years later, Alex would go to kindergarten, then to grade school. Alex might be the bookworm type, or maybe Alex will like sports or TV. Maybe Alex will like to dance and sing. Maybe Alex will like to play football. Alex will go through elementary school, middle school, then on to high school, building relationships along the way. In high school, Alex might meet a girl/guy. Alex might fall in love. After high school, Alex might get married, and have children. Alex might love these children a lot, and take them to see you, their grandmother. Alex might come over to your house for dinner sometimes, and point out the time that Alex bought you a chocolate bar for Mother’s Day, but ate it. Then, you will all laugh, and Alex’s children (your grandchildren) will beg to hear more about Alex’s childhood.
Too bad none of that will happen. Even if Alex was not human at the time of the abortion, Alex would have become human. Who knows what Alex might have become? Alex might of cured cancer. Alex might have ended a war. Or, Alex might have raised a loving family. Maybe one of Alex’s children or grandchildren would have changed the world for the better. But you destroyed any chance for that.
Now, you say that you wouldn’t have been able to give up the child for adoption. You wouldn’t have been able to bear that. So, you decided not to let the child exist at all. Yes, that makes perfect sense. Let’s pretend that my cat, Sophia, just had kittens. They’re all so cute and cuddly and lovable. I want to keep them all, but I can’t. My parents want me to give them away, but I can’t bear the thought of anyone else having my kittens. So, I take them into my room, and wring their necks. I kill every last one. Because, isn’t it better for them to die? Isn’t that better than letting someone else have them?

(By the way, it’s “decision” not “desision.” )

Lastly, in the past, girls got pregnant as soon as they got their period. Some were 10, 11, 12. Back then, people were smaller than they are now. So, I do not want to hear about how these girls are “too young” and “too small” to have children. Mary, the Mother of God, would have been about 12 years old, maybe a bit older. Stop making excuses. You made the “mistake” of intentionally going to a party and INTENTIONALLY getting drunk. You got pregnant because of your own choices. You should have suffered the consequences.

 Amen

 Okay so let's assume that maybe Alex didn't grow up to be a good child, and raise a loving family and cure cancer. Maybe he raped a woman and put her in the situation of a teenage pregnancy like his mother. Or maybe he killed the woman instead. I'm not saying that you should abort because your child might commit a crime, but the possibility of your child curing cancer isn't a viable reason not to abort, either.
And yes, she made a mistake and got pregnant. When you were 16 did you never make a mistake? Do you not regret them? I believe she made the right decision in getting an abortion, because why would you force a child to have a child who would grow up unwanted and unloved? This girl was not stable enough to go through 9 months of pregnancy. 
I'm not saying that everyone should go and have an abortion, nor am I saying that I would ever get an abortion, but I do believe that a woman should have the choice.

You’re right. That boy will never be called a whore. Never be cast out for the mistake he made with a 16 year old girl....but she gave him that power. The choice she made ON HER OWN as you added, wasn’t the abortion, it was handing over rights to her body the second she picked up that drink. you're all whining. "oh its not fair that the boy gets to walk free" you know what? His loss. Because he would have never known the love that child could have brought him. he'll never know what its like to have a real and good relationship with a woman or child because of his destructive behavior. but if this is not enough, what should we do? reverse nature? im not saying its all her fault, but why didnt that guy care enough about her to stick around, make sure she was alright - you know, not pregnant? she obviously didnt care enough about herself not to gamble her health with alcohol. she obviously didnt care enough to stay away from dangerous situations. Why should he care when she obviously doesnt?

and honey, i dont know which bible you’re reading but GAY isn’t a GENE. Saint Peter isn’t God. and last i checked Jeremiah 1:5 said “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;" and 29:11said "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." and who are we to nip Gods plans in the bud? im not saying that i am without sin. you are just being extreme and fallacious.

and you are a ASSUMING she was raped! and where exactly do you stand on her maturity? because first you congratulate her for making a life-changing health decision on her own, then contradict yourself by saying that she is uneducated, unready, and incapable. So she cant carry a child for 9 months because of a choice that SHE MADE but its all right to allow her to have an abortion because that obviously has no lasting effects.

plus this kid wasnt some innocent girl who got raped and fell to depression. She says herself," i am only 16 im a junior in highschool, iv been to rehab, a hunderd therapist, etc. im barly taking ahold of my life." she had issues long before the pregnancy.

and about your probability, what part of anything your child EVER did hasnt effected you and the thing you do?

as for the "mother" no i wouldnt allow my kid to have an abortion. if anything id raise the kid myself. but before i ever had to make that choice, i think i should worry about why my kid is HAVING SEX WITH STRANGERS IN THE CITY and BREAKING THE LAW by dinking underage. why should i walk a mile in her shoes, she should have known better before she put them on. the fact that she didnt may not be her fault, but it sure as hell isnt an excuse for getting pregnant. "oh i didnt know that if you go into a new place and get wasted the chances of getting raped and pregnant are really high" thats ridiculous.

regardless of what "Alex" would be, that should be Alexs choice. i know he has a long way to go before he gets there, but he woulda figured it out. Alex could have been anything. Truthfully he probably would have been a really good motivator for mom to clean up her life. happens all the time. its called sacrifice. and its what you do when you have a kid. you drop your life and give it to the one youre starting. thats how it should be. she says the kid would have closed doors for her, but she also has absolutely no way of knowing how many it would have opened, even if she had given it up for adoption.

and to your rebuttal: people are actually getting taller. according to scientific american, "...is that modern humans are taller than those from the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. In fact, over the last 150 years the average height of people in industrialized nations has increased approximately 10 centimeters (about four inches). "
not that i support the other argument, but she is right, women were a lot tougher then. but you know what else? they were married when they had sex. they had kids young but they didnt have to worry about child support because they were protected by their morals....morality: a novel idea really.
and again you are ASSUMING. assuming the statistics follow trend. and people at one point valued life, both the life they had and the life they made. children weren't burdens, if they were, people would not have taken the chance, like you said. but they did, because they understood that the potential for growth is in new life not selfishness.

and how, again, would that make Mary a whore? since she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit to bring God's child into flesh. Mary carried a burden much more than any girl today. She never actually had sex. she was accused of cheating on her fiancé, of being a whore, and a harlot, but she never did anything wrong. and her man stood by her the whole time.
She was sober the whole time by the way.

and if you believe the bible is just some overrated chronicle, then why do you use it to refute when you obviously have so little knowledge of it?

 Please do provide sources for your information. I would love to know of a current case of a baby being aborted "up until the day of birth". Then, I would like to know how one determines the "day of birth" if the pregnancy is terminated prior to that day. Seems like a bit of a conundrum to me. Actually, just shoot me a link for any of your outlandish statements. I'm sure its a very reputable source like the US Department of Health and not some bogus "Fact" copied from a anti-choice website. I do look forward to your well thought out and easily defendable response.

 Only a woman that has been in your situation can understand the relief you felt afterward. I also had an abortion, and I am so thankful that I had the option. It's not a decision that I took lightly, but nothing compares to the relief I felt after. 
Don't ever let anyone make you feel guilty for your choice. You know in your heart that you did the right thing. I know that I won't put myself in that situation again, and i'm sure that you feel the same way. Protect yourself.

 oh yea and btw. i hate to double post. but

its a matter of opinon when 'life begins'. 
abortions in the 3rd trimester are illegal and i agree they are wrong. you shouldnt wait that long to make a desison like that.

but .

time are changing people, how is it fair that a women has to go thru with pregnancy when she dosent want to? what does the man have to face? NOTHING. he can have his fun and leave and never look back. but women cant always do that. arent we looking for EQUALITY?  women should have that choice, we shouldnt be forced to do anything. if someone dosent want to be pregnant. simple as that, she shouldnt have to be. this is america, arent we the land of the 'free' how is a women who is going thru prengancy unwillingly 'free'.? sure she made that choice to open her legs, but so did that man. and he has ZERO consequence. its unfair for women and girls to be subject to this. if a girl wants to end her pregnancy, no questions asked, she should get the medical treatment she wants. and calm down people an aborboriton is not expensive. we spend BILLIONS IN TAX MONEY ON MORE POINTLESS SUBJECTS. think about it, stop crying about 'injustice' and 'ooo its unfair for us to have to pay for it!" well you dont argue when your moneys going towards giving some fat bastard a bigger pay raise when hes getting paid to much already. maybe we should look at where our money is going already and think about the girls who lives can be changed in a good way .

just becuase you have an abortion dosent mean youll be traumatized, im completly fine! no regrets! but i guess in most peoples eyes i should be crying depressed and feeling utterly horrible about myself. i AM GRATEFUL FOR MY ABORTION. I WOULD DO IT OVER AGAIN IF I COULD GO BACK IN TIME. I WOULD NOT HAVE HAD IT ANY OTHER WAY. 
IN MY EYES I DIDNT KILL ANYONE, I NEVER HAD A BABY INSIDE OF ME I HAD AN UNFORTUNITE BUNCH OF UNWANTED CELLS THAT I GOT RID OF. PROBLEM SOLVED, HATE ME FOR IT. HONESTLY I DONT CARE. ITS MY OPINON, AND THAT IS YOURS. LAWS SHOULD NOT BE MADE BECUASE A BUNCH OF BIBLE PUSHING OFFICIALS WANT EVERYTHING TO BE THEIR WAY

I can't speak for Imonlyme93, but I believe a fetus becomes a life when they are able to survive outside of the womb. That is when they are capable of beginning life, so that is when they are alive. Before that, they are simply a bunch of cells. Any cell could become a human life, but that doesn't mean they are all precious children.

When do you think life begins? At conception, because the embryo becomes a potential human? How about all the eggs and sperm in the parents? Those could all be potential lives. Is any guy who masturbates a murderer? Or any woman who doesn't conceive a child every time she ovulates? If a woman ovulates and doesn't conceive a child, is she a murderer because she let that egg die when it had the potential to become a child? No, of course not. Just like nothing magical happens overnight when the 3rd trimester begins, on the same token, nothing magical happens when sperm meets egg. You don't suddenly become a parent. Plenty of women get pregnant all the time and never know about it because something goes wrong after conception before the pregnancy even becomes detectable. That doesn't mean it was a child who died. It was just a bunch of cells, cells that were previously simply an egg and a sperm, that were apparently so expendable then, but somehow become precious the moment they meet.

So the guy has to write a check for the girl every month, assuming she finds him, BOO FRICKIN HOO......

Does HE have to wake up to feed and change the baby every time it cries at night? NO! SHE does.

Does HE have to take the kid to school every day and help with homework at night? NO! SHE does.

Does HE have to cook dinner and breakfast for the child every day? NO! SHE does.

Does HE have to be home from fun nights with his friends or important events because a child is sick? NO! SHE does

Does HE have to put school and jobs on hold because there is a helpless child in his home and theres no one else to care for it? NO! SHE does

Does HE have to go through the physical and emotional changes during pregnancy? NO! SHE does.

Does HE go through long, painful labor and childbirth, putting his life at risk? NO! SHE does.

Does HE have to help her take care of the child when she is sick and needs a break? NO! SHE  HAS NO ONE!

Does HE have to bypass vacations to nice places without a care in the world? NO! SHE does!

Does HE get called a slut or a whore in the hallway at school with a baby bump? NO! SHE does! HE gets a fucking high five for nailing a girl!!!!

So he pays for some bibs, some diapers, helps put the child through school. but guys, money isnt everything. the money they pay isnt even enough to pay for most of the stuff. the woman provides much more. MONEY IS FAR FROM EVERYTHING

the reason women get abortions isnt always because they can't financially afford a child, but because they can't afford to devote the time to it, or because they aren't emotionally ready.

emotionally ready doesnt deal only with the raising of the child. its the growing of the child inside her. no matter what age, there are a lot of emotional changes. some women wont be able to handle it.

 Pro choice doesn't think logically? Please. 

Just to reiterate what I said earlier, a woman “has” to go through pregnancy because it’s her responsibility do so, just as the man is responsible for taking care of the woman whom he has impregnated. Actually, though, you never “had” to go through pregnancy. Women don’t “have” to get pregnant. You didn’t “have” to have sex. You made that choice. If you hadn’t had sex, you wouldn’t have gotten pregnant. And before people start ranting about rape victims and health problems, 1st of all, my friend was the child of a rapist. 2nd, only 1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

So you're saying that if my husband was in some sort of accident and became "dead" from the waist down and we could no longer have intercourse, we would never be able to fully love each other again? That's rediculous. There are couples who get married and never have sex but still fully love each other! Its true, look it up! Tyra Banks even did an episode on the subject.

I especially like 8,6,5,3 and 2.

Btw, the Bible never directly states that abortion is murder, which would make it odd that it is considered murder in the Bible (like some claim), since abortion was around during Biblical times and that all other activities applicable to those times were given specific prescriptions.  And the commandment is:  Thou shalt not murder not Thou shalt not kill.  Good thing, otherwise so many people would have disobeyed that commandment, already.

Religious law accepts that one is alive when they have taken their first breath.  Plus, the only passages that deal at least partly with abortion in the Bible refer to Pro-Forced Abortion, which is NOT ProChoice.  Giving medicinal herbs to cause a miscarriage (aka spontaneous abortion) to determine if a woman has been unfaithful or paying a fine when only a fetus is harmed but being put to death when the woman is killed, also implies that the fetus is not as important as those already born.  Whether that applies because one is either property due to their capacity to bear children (as women often were considered back then), to their ability to labour or neither, the fact still remains that those born are more important than those that are not.

I believe that a woman can have an abortion for whatever reason at whatever stage of gestation. It is the only way to remain constitutional.  EVeryone has the right to determine who uses their body and how and when it is used, via informed, explicit and ongoing consent, even if another cannot survive without that usage.  I live in Canada.  The ONLY developed country without an abortion law.  Yet, abortion rates are comparable maybe even less when contrasted with other countries.  I am so thankful to live here.

I would like to add that not everyone realizes they're pregnant at the same time.    No one woman experiences pregnancy the same way.  There was one woman who didn't realize she was pregnant right up until the time she gave birth.  Fortunately, she WANTED her pregnancy.  Too, even in countries with legal abortion one can encounter difficulties with abortion access.   Making it difficult for some women to have an abortion within the accepted timeframe.  That is NOT her fault.

Abortion should be safe, legal and remain a decision between the woman and her doctor, for whatever reason, for whenever she wishes.

   

Those of you who believe in Pro-choice. here is a concept for you

Murder is a choice, should that be legal
theft is a choice, should that be legal
smoking drugs is a choice to do to your body, should they all be legal
euthanasia is a choice, should that be legal

and to the one who said that the fetus is technically Living but not alive, how can you be living and not alive you have to be alive to be living therefore you have to be alive if you are living
killing of a human life is wrong no matter if its developing or already born,

if you had a child that you gave birth to and couldn't take care of it, would you kill it... No of course not  you'd give it up for adoption if you had to or get help, the same counts for a fetus because it is aliving being it is its own body its not your bod it belongs to the fetus itself, so to the prochoice people and to all abortion doctors, QUIT MURDERING THE INNOCENT 

ROE VS. WADE, look it up all you people out there

 "For you knit me together in my mother's WOMB, I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made" -Psalm 139: 13

aka God made every HUMAN being, who are we to play God?

Quran (Islam):
"Losers are those who killed their children foolishly, due to their lack of knowledge, and prohibited what God has provided for them, and followed innovations attributed to God. They have gone astray, they are not guided." (6:140)

"You shall not kill your children due to fear of poverty. We provide for them, as well as for you. Killing them is a gross offense"(17:31)

O you prophet, when the believing women (who abandoned the disbelievers) to seek asylum with you pledge to you that they will not set up any idols besides GOD, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood, nor disobey your righteous orders, you shall accept their pledge, and pray to GOD to forgive them. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. (60:12)

Bible Old Testament: (Christianity/Judaism)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him." (Ecc. 3:14) God made the “fetus.” Who are you to destroy “it”?

Hippocratic Oath:
I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

Dharani Sutra: (Buddhism)
"There are five kinds of Evil Karma which are difficult to extinguish, even if one were to repent of them. What are the five kinds of offences? The first one is killing the father, the second one is killing the mother, the third one is abortion, the fourth one is to injure The Buddha, the fifth one is to create disharmony among the Sangha assemblies [i.e. create division and schism]. These five types of evil and sinful karma are difficult to extinguish."

Hinduism:
Wipe off, O Pushan, the sins of him that practiseth abortion." (Sacred Books of the East, 42:165)

Oh my gosh!   WSuzyQ8, do you remember me? Email me. I still have the same email and would love to get in touch with you.

I would also like to say that the quote from The Holy Quran has been misquoted.. It reads

       Lost are those who slay their children, from folly, without knowledge, and forbid food which Allah has provided for them, inventing (lies) against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and heeded no guidance. 6:140

If you are gonna quote...at least quote it right.

 So I could take the child outside of my body? Because I'm pretty sure being pregnant would be noticeable and uncomfortable to me. Until the child can survive on it's own outside of a womb, it's practically a parasite.

http://www.bible.ca/s-Abortion.htm#hands

Look this up. A 21-week old "fetus". Still young enough to be aborted. The “fetus” is undergoing spinal surgery so that it won’t have brain defects. At 21-weeks old, you can see its tiny hand curled around the finger of the surgeon. And you people say that it’s not human?

THANK YOU! Finally, someone makes sense. They say that a fetus lives in a mother’s body, which she owns, so she can do whatever she wants to the “fetus”. So, if my dad owns his house, and I live in it, can he kill me? No. BTW, let me clarify something. Abortion is similar to both the Holocaust and to slavery. Jews, slaves, and “fetuses” are all dehumanized. People were told that Jews are lesser beings. They were portrayed as sub-standard, as not really human. The same with “Negro” slaves. Jew. Negro. Fetus. All words that are used to make them appear not human. It’s Just a Jew. Just a slave. Just a fetus.

One other thing that is too important to leave out--
If you call a fetus a baby, you are blurring a very important distinction. This is often done by the "Right-to-Lifers." Then doctors get called "baby-killers." This is calling a virual Fatwa on whatever doctor is called this. Of course you know what such names do to unstable people. And you know there are unstable people out there all the time. Anyone who calls a fetus a "baby" or calls a doctor who performs abortions a "baby-killer" is guilty of the death of every doctor or health care worker who has been killed by a right wing nut. All of you have Dr. Tiller's blood on your hands.

 
Fetus as defined by the dictionary:

an unborn child.

So it is a child, simply unborn. Make sense? or is there something I'm missing? 9I'm the girl who could've been aborted, remember me?)

This is awesome.  I wonder how many words I can write before I run out of space.
10.  You assert that making abortion illegal will cause untold damage to women based on the assumption that they will seek out illegal abortions that are likely to be unsafe.  You might be correct, though I doubt as many women will decide to break the law, so you cannot really assume one way or the other.  Lets assume you are correct though.  By your 'logical' analysys there are a few things I'd like to add to the list.  Prostitution, bank robbery, murder, theft, drunk driving.  All of these things must be made legal based on your logic.  The fact of the matter is, if one is going to drive drunk, he will have to use backroads to avoid the cops, if it were legal he would be much safer driving drunk on main roads, as there are less dangers on main roads...unfortunately he might hit a child or two on the way, but who cares.  Also we must make all theft legal, I've heard several cases in which a theif was damaged during the process, they had to go through windows, or cielings and it hurt them...just watch world's dumbest criminals, you see we should really legalize theft so that these people don't get hurt, we can incorporate safer methods of breaking the..ehem old law.  Now prostitution causes many hookers to be hurt because they do not have access to safe hooker havens where they can be tested and kept free from harm from their payees.. really your logic is astounding.  If we legalize all crime...nobody would ever suffer from doing it !!! YAY
9.  I couldn't agree more with the use of contraceptive devices I would gladly donate along with you.  Maybe the abortion industry can pitch in..what is there basic profits per year..I know abortionists alone can make a good clean lving working on every other saturday and still rake in well over 100k or so a year..not bad not bad at all.  Thats like..a million condoms if you add it all up.
8.  True most politicians lie about what they believe in, in order to secure a voting base.. Just like when Good ole B.O. said he'd have the economy fixed in no time... yea theres not really an argument here, then again you didn't provide an argument to begin with, you basically just ad hominem some reportedly pro life politicians.  Well as long as it satisfies your ego.. maybe you just ran out of REAL logical arguments for your cause, but had already planned to have 10 items.. Well kudos on sticking with it.
7.  Religious ideology..really? I love this.  I'm pro-life, I'm not religious..argument debunked?  Ok seriously though, lets examine what you are saying..simply because someone claims that their religious faith backs an idea that is also supported by law, that law must now be falliable?  You are right we do not have laws against eating fish..and whatever the others suppose, but we do have laws against theft, murder...uhoh we've got a problem here, Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal..you'd better get to your politicians RIGHT away and help me in striking these RELIGIOUSLY based ideas OFF the law books immediately... Honestly could you be any idioticly bold in your assertions that you didn't stop to THINK of counter arguments?  True religious beliefs shoudln't be the ONLY basis for any law accepted by secular society, in the case of abortion, while the majority of religious persons might be against it, that doesn't constitute that it is founded upon religion..In fact your own arguments claims quite the opposite, so...where do you draw the line?..... This is truly hilarious.
6.  Alright this is the second time you chose contraception as a basis for argument.  This is now a 8 point post right?  Again I digress and agree all available methods of contraception are well and fine.. you realize that the term contraception denotes that it stops conception from ever happening right?  This is a completely different idea when you talk about chemically poisoning particular areas of the body in order to induce an abortion, but I digress again, perhaps you simply chose the wrong words.. Make  no mistake an abortion is not contraception, and your assertion that they are one in the same puts you at a disadvantage in this discussion.  Seriously your empathetic (subtract the em) appeal with viagra doesn't seem to give credit to your logical side.
5.  So I'm to assume the vast majority of persons opposing the legality of abortion are men?  HAH fat chance sister, in truth the majority in favor of abortion are men.  You do not realize that men benefit more than a woman ever could from abortion.  While the woman, yet again, does all the work to have the procedure done, the man is completely saved of any and all responsibility of his sexual actions with the woman.  You haven't changed a thing by granting women the right to allow men to freely do what the wish with women then toss them to the curb and act like they never existed, if anything your argument doesn't support women, it degrades and defames them as nothing more than a piece of flesh, that in the event of a problem can be sent to the nearest clinic, with a couple c-notes and a kiss goodbye.  Again I will do as best as I can to tear down the logical fallacy which you present.  You state that because a man is not directly affected by the aspects of abortion he has no rights to vote upon the laws determining it.  Again I say to you that only criminals will be allowed, by your logic dear, to determine punishment, as non criminals will never have to feel the pain of that punishment.  Again I say to you that only murderers will be able to establish, by your logic, the definition of their crime and their punishment.  You see now where you fail to establish a connection with rational thought.  You are for some reason blinded by presumptions that are hard wired into your process, THINK, it can save lives.
4.  I will not point out that your statistics are misleading and out of context.  I will, however point out that 95% of abortions are not due to medical issues, incest or rape.  Let me ask you this then, if I were to concede on the point of rape, incest, .and medical issues would you then agree that the rest of abortions can be dubbed illegal?  You wouldn't you say....well this is quite disturbing..why then bring up the argument of rape?  Hard cases of controversy like this truly have a pathos (emotional) appeal don't they.  Of course they will cause people to think upon the sufferage endured by the woman and distract what is actually occuring otherwise.  I will again attack your illogical presumptions.  If a man's father is in fact a thief, he should therefore pay for his father's crimes.  If a woman's mother commits a murder, her daughter must spend life in prison...these assertions make sense to you right?...if they do not then can you please explain to me WHY it is your predisposition to punish, with the severity of death, a child for the unlawful behavior of it's father?  If a daughter is raped by her father, he will then have the ability to cleanly dispose of any evidence, by your logic,  in a private legal. and air conditioned process, to gladly say "See honey, all is taken care of." Then return to abuse with nobody the wiser.  I'm glad you are providing such an oppurtunity for pedophiles and child molesters to reign in such a manner..you really do provide such an adequate disposal method for evidence of their crimes in your arguments. 
3.  Great lets point out that in an undeveloped third world country people are impoverished, then lets proclaim that they have many children, it will likely be a correlation that is confused for causation.  Did you ever stop to think (laughs inside) that perhaps the reason the south african mother's produce so many children due to the early death rate of their citizens, basically it's self preservation.  Did you ever consider other sources of poverty, or the fact that even mothers with 1 child, or women with none in south africa are as well impoverished by our standards...Of course not thinking would be an atrocious display of courtesy against your arguments so far.
2.  True and granted.  If a mother is at risk for death then in self defense she has no other choice but to abort her child.  This law would apply the same to a teenager shooting at his mother with a gun (obtained legally by the way since we changed the gun laws to make obtaining them safer due to your outstanding arguments over safer abortions) she has every right in self defense to protect her person and put his life to rest if in fact that is the only necessary option.  You have nothing to feel guilty about, you preserved yourself and had good reasoning to do so, the laws prior to Roe v Wade did allow in every case the exception of medical protection, and would continue to allow protection of the life of the mother if in fact it is in danger.  Kudos on being a mother by the way, its not easy.  I'm a father of four I understand how it is.  I was 15 when I had my first son, his mother left me and I took full responsibilty, but my personal matters (nor yours) are of any interest in this discussion.
1.  Governments regulate every form and fashion of the medical industry.  FDA (Food and DRUG administration) Medical Bar Associations, government funded research and development.  They are severely entangeled and the ehthical procedures and practices are in the forefront of many medical studies, on the basis of legality.  Take for example the example of human testing, the government closely regulates this practice.  Can any pharmecuetical company (comprised of scientists and doctors) put out a drug without first applying for approval from the FDA?  The answer is many facets of our lives are strictly regulated by the government.  Furthermore even our own very personal safety is regulated by governments, 49 out of 50 states have seat belt laws.  The VAST majority of states have punishments for prostitution for both parties involved (is that not a woman's choice?)  There are many factors that you haven't considered.  I do not consider you to be at fault though.  I think that many idiotic pro lifer arguments have led you into this dissarray of thought.  It's true that many of their arguments are completely irrelevant, fallicious in nature, and damaging to critical and reasonable thought.  There is alos a plethora of misinformation proposed by the pro-abortion industry which makes its billions providing the service that it wants to continue practicing.  You need to look at the larger picture.  There is no other point at which a human life will begin its journey within the life continuum, as a unique individualized human.  In fact the first 5-6 days of its life it is completely independent of the mother , strives off its own energy source, and has to force it's way into the placenta by the use of anti immune devices.  Embryology will prove this to  you look it up, its called a blastocyst.  The continued development of a person cannot be determined by the factors of viability of functionalism, as with any developing child at various points of life (especially in the earliest times) it is not ever independant, and requires sustenance and nourishment from another human.  The arguments of functionalism will render people like Stephen Hawking as non human.  The arguments of personhood led to atrocities such as slavery and genocide.  These things, in a progressive world, are the quickly eroding and deteriorating arguments of past generations formed in mistaken thought without thoroughly logical analysys.  There is a simple way out of having to make the choice of abortion, its to choose to use protection diligently, or to have sex less frequently and understand that when the choice is made, that also is combined with the choice to create a life.  Only upon entering an full and true agreement with the consquences of one's actions can we make thoughtful and developed reasons to do, or not do, what we wish.  We cannot change the rules to make the game work for us.  Life is life, and wills itslef by mere volition to survive and thrive, and if left alone, those children will definately be born.  If no action stops their arrival, they will be here as fully fledged human as you and I.  Take no action, as the first rule of medicine cites.  Do no harm.

 Basic Google search? Or do you have to be spoon-fed?

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

I love this!!! GREAT!!!

Wow....conceited much? Even if you don't agree with someone, or one part of their argument doesn't make sense, you can at least hear out the rest of it and give them a chance. Or maybe you're just so wrapped up in your own bias that you can't even begin to acknowledge that someone on the other side may have actual facts and a decent argument to counter yours.

Bravo. This was certainly refreshing to read after suffering through all that garbage posted by people like imonlyme93 and Pheo152

yee haw

 I am currently writing an ISU on abortion. I am pro-life. I want to point a few things out to you. 40-50 MILLION babies are aborted every year. Those are 40-50 million lives that could be saved, 40-50 million children who could be adopted, given to people who cannot have their own children. Look at this : at 28 days since conception the child already has a detectable heartbeat, 43 days- detectable brainwaves, at 9-13 weeks the child is able to feel pain (most abortions are conducted at this time). Abortion is murder. All of those things show that what is growing inside of the womb is a human being. And having an abortion is taking the life of a child. 
This is a poem written by a fellow schoolmate of mine and I think it was very well written and think you should take the time to read it and consider it : 

An Innocent Life:

 Ok did you not read the whole thing. In the beginning. 43 DAYS since conception the child already has detectable brain waves. And just so you know if you were aborted you say you wouldn't care. But that means that you wouldn't be here. Would you care if you were murdered? Because that's the same thing. Just so you know....

IF WE ARE TO RESTRICT WOMEN'S LIFE'S CHOICES, THEN WE MUST ALSO RESTRICT THE MEN'S WHO GET WOMEN PREGNANT.  ANY MAN WHO IMPREGNATES A WOMAN BEFORE SHE IS FULLY READY, SHOULD THEN BE REQUIRED BY LAW TO BE "FIXED" AND HAVE A VASECTOMY, SO THAT HE DOESN'T DO IT AGAIN!

 Not everyone is using capital letters, but making broad assumptions like this happens alot when people feel they need to defend themselves, because they did something wrong.

Nice try though...

Well, your mom must think that freedom is wrong. People have been fighting for freedom for years, defending it. Free speech is now wrong, I guess, since everyone and their brother is defending it. Independence is wrong. Freedom of religion is wrong. Equality is wrong. Thank you so much for clearing that up for me!

No person walking this Earth (unless they are a sociopath) is pro-abortion. However, as a religious pro-choicer (not an oxymoron), I do believe that a woman should be able to choose. Do I agree with abortions? Not completely (even though there are some circumstances where I do). But I think that a woman, or any person, should have a choice in  what they do or don't do. While I don't quite understand/agree with point #7, and #8 seems really weird, I agree with the overall sentiment. Abortions will and have happened whether they are illegal are not, and the effects can be disastrous when not legalized and therefore properly regulated. Also, why not prevent abortions all together by giving people the info and resources to not get pregnant? There are some idiots who will have lots of sex without condoms or BC anyway and will be surprised when they have a baby, but most people just need to know. When people are aware, they don't make dumb decisions based on ignorance.
The biggest criticism of abortion is that a child is alive and is theoretically killed by abortions. But that isn't really true. There is a limit on when a woman can get an abortion (I think 24 weeks) unless there is a really good reason (death, injury, etc). If a baby is born before 24 weeks, it is considered premature and will probably not survive, so that argument is flawed.
However, us as pro-choicers should not denounce the arguments of pro-lifers. You shouldn't (and honestly can't) argue with someone's religious beliefs and values, and it can come across as offensive and disrespectful to call someone stupid or illogical for not having your beliefs. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree, or try to work together to understand each other and let people make their own decisons. Or maybe that's too idealistic of me.

Unfortunately, I cannot "agree to disagree" whe it comes to protecting the lives of people who cannot speak for themselves.

78,000 women die from unsafe abortions!!??? Sounds like poetic justice to me.

First of all, let me state that while reviewing the facts, and addressing this from a logic perspective, I am a pro-life advocate.

I truly do appreciate hearing reasons as to why people are pro-choice and am always interesting in debating and discussion from a logic perspective. Many of you have good point to make.

In my research I think that where we divide, the crucial point at which people become either pro-choice or pro-life is based upon only 1 element.

that question is simply ... When does life occur?

As a pro-choice advocate, the standard responce is that life, does not occur until birth. However, at times this can seem contradictory as even most pro-choicers do not belive that partial birth abortion should be allowed.

I understand that many scientists and doctors may state that life begins at birth, but there are many that say the opposite as well, so it's something that you cannot just take the word of another. You need to investigate it foryourself.

IF life doesnot begin at birth, then I would 100% agree with your many good points. However, my concern is that none of your points address the most important question. Is this a living being?

Of course, I could (and do) argue that the facts seem to imply that the unborn child is still "alive", and I understand that you and pretty much everyone on this forum may disagree, but let's not distract ourselves from what we are disagreeing about. I think it's a life, you do not. That is the ONLY real issue here.

To belabor the point, none of your arguments would hope up if the child was already born would it? Even in rape/incest ect... most people would not think it ok to abort a child that was already born under any circumstance. So that just proves that any reason for the abortion is irrelevant ... the only issue to be concerned with is if the unborm fetus/child/whatever you want to call it, is "human, alive, whatever ..."

Most of the time, when I try to talk to people on this subject, I just get people yelling at me about circumstances, rights, and other issues. To be clear, there are some horrible sufferings that many women go through and it breaks my heart. However, logically, we need to address the issues that divide us.

For those of you that are pro-choice, please don't think poorly of people that disagree with you. We are not monsters that sit back and judge you (we'll I'm sure there are some of that on both sides)  for your desicisions ... we simply disagree on this issue. If you put yourselfs in our shoes ...if you truly belived that aboration was killing a human child, much like killing a toddler ... would you not also be passionate about this issue? Neither of us may see eye to eye on everything, but I think we have more in common than you might see..

1) Can we agree that abortion should not be used as a method of Birth Control (dangers to the woman, ect...)
2) Can we agree that abortions should be prevented at somepoint during the prenacy? (is it ok 5 min before birth to terminate the baby?)

think it over, for those of you that want to shout in the darkness, take your shot. For those that wish to have a logical conversation, replay and we can chat. I'm most interested in what is true, and I'm not always right. If I am wrong, I'd want to know and correct my thinking. I hope you feel the same.

I would like to comment on flat lining. A person can still be technically dead even if the heart is still beating. Immense brain damage can essentially kill a person. The only thing that may be keeping the person "alive" is the autonomic nervous system keeping the essential functions of life..breathing, respiration etc. The body does this automatically without a person being aware. Which brings me to my point.. Its not our organs that signify life...yes its important to have a heart..lungs ..But we have machines that can do that. What seperates life from nothing is awareness. It separtes us from animals...So the question we need to ask ourselves is.. When do we become aware? When do we start thinking?

i just want to tell a little of my story.  I was 19 when i found out that i was pregnant with my daughter.  I was basically homeless (I lived with my boyfriend at his mother's house) and my grandmother was dying.  (She was the person that had always supported me financially.)  I had never wanted to have children and i was always afraid of being pregnant and giving birth.  I was not ready to have a baby.  My boyfriend wanted me to have an abortion, but i said no, we fought...hard, and we broke up over it.  It just felt so wrong to even consider an abortion. 
That period in my life was so difficult because of all that was going on at the time.  I had my family, but i felt so alone.  There were times I would consider adoption, and other times I just wanted to die.  I had no idea what i was going to do, but i knew that something would work out.  My boyfriend and I started talking to each other again, he got a job, and we got back together.  
When the time came to have the baby, I was terrified.  I was in labor for 12 hours and i was miserable, but I made it through.  I would not take any of it back.  My daughter is the reason I work, the reason I quit smoking pot and drinking, and the only reason I think I am alive today.  She helped me get through the death of my grandma.  She gave me a reason to go on.  She just turned four, and she is the most beautiful girl in the world!
I became pregnant again last year but this time was different.  We planned to have another baby.  I knew i was pregnant right away.  With the fatigue and morning sickness I knew for sure, but since I hadn't had a period since before my daughter was born, I had to find out how far i was.
I was at 11 weeks gestation when I saw my son's little face on the ultrasound.  I saw him rub his eyes, and he even yawned at us.  11 WEEKS.  I saw his little hands and his little feet; he was the size of a peanut.  We saw him moving right before our eyes at 11 weeks!  That was my baby, and I loved him then.  We have a healthy, happy little family and it is complete.  I don't like birth control, and i was too scared to get sterilized, but we will be using protection.  I know that if we have an "accident" I still will not consider abortion. 
I know in my heart that abortion is murder, but it is not our place to judge one another.  When our time comes we are all accountable for our actions.  There are many things i will have to answer for in this life, but I know when my time comes, I will not have to answer for murdering an innocent, helpless baby.

Now to My Real Point
To all of you that are pro choice:  You are all entitled to your opinion, and if you can live with yourself after making such a decision, so be it.  But I urge all of you to do a quick google image search for abortion photos, then come and tell me that that "fetus" has no right to life.  Come and tell me with a clear conscience that that "bunch of cells" does not deserve the opportunity to breathe because it would cause you such an inconvenience.  I am serious, look it up from all gestational ages.  It just may urge you to reevaluate your stance on the issue.  It may not change your mind, but hopefully it makes you think twice what abortion really is.

 Rarely is it a case of "inconvenience." More often than not, women choose to terminate because they know they are unable to care for a child financially, emotionally, etc. Do you honestly believe abortion is a worse alternative to a lifetime of suffering?

 I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant the potential lifetime of suffering should a woman decide to have a baby she cannot care for. Physically, mentally, financially, etc. Personally, adoption would never be an option so I wasn't clear with my last comment. Adoption is an alternative to raising a child, and i'm sure for some people it is the right choice. 

Birth control prevents pregancy. There is no logical, valid reasoning that birth control is wrong, therefore I think every woman should be on some form of it if unwanted pregnancy is the case. Nip possible consequences and problems in the butt before it ever happens.

While I respect the fact that some people believe in their right to have abortions, they are forgetting the rights of the person most involved: the unborn child. These 10 arguments are not only illogical, they are severely flawed and make absolutely no sense when examined closely.

10. Why should we make laws to protect the potential law breakers? Does it make sense to make robbery legal because thousands of burgulars are killed each year during botched robberies? No. A rational society does not make laws to protect law breakers.

9. You claim that most pro-life supporters are against contraceptive measures. Where is your data for this? You are simply making this claim on the ignorant assumption that the only people who are against abortions are also heavily-religious. This is not true. Simply google the phrase "non-religious people against abortions" and nearly 2 million results pop up. Just because someone is against abortions does not mean that they are against contraceptive measures.

8. This arguement is possibly the most ridiculous on the list. Based on a recent study, nearly 70% of people in the United states believe abortions should be legal all or some of the time. So, based on your logic, pro-choice politicians are actually catering to the majority of people and therefore are the ones who do not actually care about the issue at hand. The politicians who are pro-life are taking the less popular route and are thereore more likely to be supporting their actual belief. Also, it is absolutely ridiculous to assume that women being pregnant somehow weakens them and keeps them "in line." If anything, having children dependent on you only empowers women and increases their feelings of self-worth. Finally, just because more people are being born does not mean that their are more people for pro-life politicians to "rule over." There is no guarentee that more people means more pro-life politician votes; it could mean more pro-choice votes. There is simply no way for politicians to know.

7. Pro-life is not necessarily a religious belief. Believing that life begins at conception does not in any way shape or form imply a belief in God. And, once again, this argument can go both ways. Murder is generally accepted as bad in most religions. So, because it is a religious belief that murder is wrong, does that mean we should make murder legal? Absolutely not.

6. I have never heard of a law saying that condoms or birth control is illegal. Please provide a source before I even begin to dignify this "argument" with a response (of which I have plenty).

5. While it is true that men cannot become pregnant, they have just as much right to protect the rights of their children. You would not be here today without a man, or at least a man's sperm. Are you suggesting that because a woman is the one to physically carry a child during the first 9 months of life that the father (50% of who the child is) the man has no rights? That is ridiculous. Also, if a law would never, in any circumstance, apply to a woman, does it make sense for women to vote on that law. Take the case of same sex marriage. Should female congressmembers and other female representatives not be allowed to vote on whether two men can get married?

4. While rape/incest is a disgusting thing and should be punished accordingly, why should the law punish one of the two victims in the situation? Children of murderers are not killed. The offspring of drug dealers are not thrown in jail. Why should the children of rapists be any different? Also, as many as 17 American couples can vie for a single white, healthy baby. The majority of orphans in the world come from third world countries where adoption programs are practically nonexistent. Perhaps some of the money that pro-choice agencies spend on advertisements (which, I assure you, is just as much as pro-life agencies) should instead be spent on helping these children.

3. Perhaps these woman should invest in simple and cheap contraceptive measure, such as condoms and birth control. If they are too poor to afford these things or if they are not available, they can try natural contraceptive measures. If that for some reason does not work for them, they can simply abstain from sex. I guarentee you, those women in Africa and Asia could find a way to stop having children if they needed to.

2. Teenagers who are dying as a result of being pregnant have made a conscious choice to have sex. By doing this, they accept all the risks that some from exposing oneself to the possibility of getting pregnant. And I don't buy all that crap about teenagers not being mature or intelligent enough to realize the enormity of the decision to have sex. I am a teenager and I am wise enough to abstain from sex unti I am ready to deal with the possible consequences. The same rule applies to adults who face life threatening consequences. If you don't want to risk it, don't get pregnant. However, I do understand that sometimes if an abortion is not performed, both the mother and child would die. In those extremely rare situations, perhaps abortions after careful consideration and deliberation coule be considered.

1. Like it or not, the government actually does have control over many of those things. Before the first blood transfusion or organ donation was performed, there were many clincial trials and experiemtns that were regulated by the government. A new cancer treatment cannot be used until it has passed numerous safety trials. Even if a doctor believes it would be beneficial to a patient, he/she cannot put a patient on that treatment plan untit is approve.

Finally, I would like to make a point that did not come up in your discussion but is a crucial argument to many pro-choicers. Life does NOT begin at birth. A baby who has been in the womb at 8 months (and has access to proper medical care) has as good a chance of survival as a baby in the womb for nine months. Premature babies are surviving earlier and earlier.  Babies born at 25 weeks have a 50% chance of survival, yet abortions are still legal at this age. So, 50% of the time, abortions performed at this time result in the death of a baby that could have survived had it been born at that exact moment. This is murder.

I sincerely hope that my arguments made sense to you and have helped clear up some of teh misconceptions about abortions.

Do I believe that I will be able to stop all the murderers in the world? No. Do I believe I will be able to stop all the rapists in the world? No. Do I believe that I will be able to stop all the women who have abortions for "social reasons" in the world? No. But I will sure as hell try. Thank you for your fond wishes-- I wish you the same.

I'm doing a debate for my Honors English class and I'd like to use some of your arguments to support our side of Pro-Choice. So I"d like to know your name and qualifications to back up the claims.
Like are these opinions or where are you getting the facts?

you know that there is not going to be a day, ever, where we will agree on when a life becomes a life. some people say that the second a sperm and egg meet, it is a life. others say when the electrical impulses transmit, it's alive. or maybe when the heart starts beating, or when the brain develops. blah blah blah. it doesn't matter. everyone has their own idea. no matter how hard you push them, their opinions will NOT change. even as I write this, I feel like it's a waste of time and thought to you pro-lifers, because no matter what, you guys are NEVER going to change your minds. I agree that everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions, and it is interesting to read the pro-life opinions. however, a lot of the pro-life opinions i read are bringing the bible into it. guys, in the constitution, the law of our country, there is A. a separation of church and state, and B. freedom of religion. point A makes your bible argument completely irrelevant. it is against the law to use the bible or any religious law to create a state or national law. yes, i know a lot of religious books say that abortion is illegal. so what? atheist’s don’t abide by those books. atheists do not believe in a god. they do not believe in God's Laws. The see no religious consequence with getting an abortion. I myself am baptized a catholic but am technically practicing Christian Baptist. I believe in God, but I know that if i were to become pregnant at this point in my life, the first place i would go after reading a positive pregnancy test is an abortion clinic. no question about it. I am 18, still in school, have no money of my own, parents who would not help me with the child, a boyfriend who could not afford it. I am about to go off to a veterinary college to become a surgical specialist. i can't afford a kid. I can't afford pre natal care. i don’t have time for a child. i don't want a child. i can't throw away my future to raise a child in this overpopulated world with overflowing orphanages and foster care centers. i wouldn’t do that to a child. and God will still accept me into Heaven. I accept Jesus Christ and the gift of salvation. that is all it takes for a Christian to go to Heaven.
^^I went off on a tangent, i know. firstly, i think its vital that a woman take a pregnancy test as soon as possible after unprotected sex. the first time a test can read that the woman is pregnant, the embryo is still very much that, a bundle of cells. if you scratch your arm, you are killing more cells than you would by killing the cells in your uterus. its not a crime to scratch your arm, so it shouldn’t be a crime to get an abortion at earliest detection of pregnancy. but honestly, anytime a woman decides she wants/needs an abortion, it should be ok. it's her life, her body, the consequensces will be hers.

 I find this very sad, it makes me cry. I hope that you realize that giving women abortions does not help them, but hands them a life of regret and depression. I have met a great many women who have had abortions and ones who have kept their babies. Not one of the women that has a child is regretful about their choice, but the women who have had abortions are tormented by what they have done. 
I hope one day that you will realize that killing an innocent life is not a noble thing, but a cowardly act. 

The term "separation of church and state" is not found in the constitution. The meaning behind the first amendment  is to keep the state from infringing on the church. In Great Britain the government was trying to control the church and the people did not want that to happen again. The 1st amendment was not to keep the church out of government, but the gov't out of the church.

Here's the big flaw with this whole religious argument about abortion. Suppose those 40 or 50 million children are aborted. Guess what? If you're right about religion then they're innocent and that's a free ride to heaven! No lifetime of suffering or the possibility of becoming an atheist and going to hell. You should be celebrating. Why in the world would you be upset about 40 million children going straight to heaven?

im not part of this religious group but some do believe in orginal sin which basicaly says once adam and eve gave birth immidiatly their new sin nature was now geneticly transfered to their children and from their children to us. so some christians would believe your sending all those babies to hell and this is why they would be so upset with this isssue. i do not beleive in original sin but i do believe in sin nature which is the fact thatonce we are past are baby years and no right from wrong like when momy tells you not to touch the iron but you do their is your first sin. anyways i wont get caught up in another issue. um yes some may believe your sending millions of children to heaven but many of those children had the possablilty of doing great things in their life time. im not saying that had no chance of being a second hitler or a second gandi im just saying they need to be given a chance and when they have fully mature give tem the chance to commit suicide if they do mabey you should have aborted but if they dont now you know your wrong.

(forgive my horrable grammer, and please dont insult my logic becuase of it.)

Also by the way i do agree with many pro choice solutions. i do not think abortion should be illigal in cases of a women dying from giving birth she should have the option to live but, otherwise abortion shouldnt be legal the "mass of cells" should be given a chance at growing and becoming a human being with its on thoughts and ideas. i dont not think you should all be 100% pro choice or 100% pro life neather side has 100%perfect logic but many arguements on each side are logical the ones that arent should be thrown out if mine isnt then by all means throw it out im just saying bot sides should argue out of love not hate or pride. you argue out of love and you go in with an open mind you could learn a few things from the other view point. i hope i dont sound like an idiot im only 16 so i may be wrong but oh well.

 Thanks dude I try my best haha

And for those who say that the purpose of separation of church and state is to keep the state from infringing upon the church; unfortunately for you, that amendment goes BOTH WAYS, whether it was meant to or not, and in today's modern society, religious freedom justifies keeping religion out of the government as well as keeping the government out of religion.  Without separation of church and state, the goverment could declare any religion illegal or a religion could alter the laws of the government to let's say, make it where some individuals have no choice as to what they can and cannot do with their bodies. 

 That's so true

The pro-life standpoint is logical. When pro-choicers are backed into a logical corner, it is interesting that they are the ones who suddenly bring up God. What the Bible says could and should stand on its own, but we realize some people don't feel it's important. That's where thelogic can't be argued with. The other defense is to suddenly call into question the facts. Totally unferstandable, and in fact asking these questions can lead you to see the issue differently. There are indeed things people don't know, and that doesn't make you evil. But upon learning the facts, being too stubborn, scared, guilty, or simply unwilling to hear your conscience tell you you can'tdosomething, to consider  a revised viewpoint, well thisis a problem. Someone said, no one will change their minds, but the reality is that manyprochoice people become prolife. What is interesting is that Ihave never heard of anyone prolife becoming prochoice, because upon further feliberation, "oh yeah that baby-like life is a bit too small to count". As another stated, the issue is pnly: is this life? At what point does the life get a soul o become a valid person, or however you might want to phrase it? Arguments generally revolve around 4 criteria: size, development, dependency, and location. All are pretty arbitrary except the point of conception, where dna has been determined. Regardless of your beliefs, logic speaks for itself, but i just think it is the Christian who is able to accept where the logic takes you - to a place with consequences, where you have to do something other than what you want, and where someone besides yourselfmatters.

 
I know this argument is old, however, I thought I would give another perspective. 

I was molested at the age of 4.

When I was fifteen, I was violently raped. I found out that I was pregnant and had an abortion.  To this day, I still do not regret my decision.  I will never regret it.

As far as I was concerned, the only thing growing inside of me was an unwanted abomination.

Today, I have 2 wonderful grown children.  Both were planned and wanted. It was a choice that was made by two consenting adults, as oppossed to being forceably impregnated.  

I am grateful that I was allowed to make the choice I did.  I certainly do not believe that our government should legislate what a woman can and can't do with her own body. 


I am pro-choice.   I believe that the fetus becomes a "life" when the mother chooses it to be.  


I am also angonistic and do not believe in any religious argument.  

 First off, I want to say thank you, thank you, thank you for how you presented your opinion. I hold a different opinion on the matter, but if we could all present our thoughts in calm ways the way you've done here we could make a lot more progress in reaching agreements on the issue of abortion. I know I'm guilty off letting my feelings get the best of me and writing out angry comments when I shouldn't.

I'd like to add my own opinion for consideration to your point about how a woman is shrugging off responsibility by having an abortion. I find that an odd point of view because by having the abortion, a woman is admitting that she can not or does not want to take care of a child and is choosing to do what is best for both her and the unborn baby. By considering an abortion in the first place doesn't that indicate that the woman may not be ready or able to care for a child and thus she is making a responsible decision by not having a baby?

Now some people will point out that she should have the child anyway and give it up for adoption. While this sounds like a good idea, if you look at all the unwanted children who will never be adopted, this is actually putting the child in an even worse situation that will haunt them the rest of their lives if they don't find a loving family. 

Really it does all come down to opinion and personal beliefs because there is no hard evidence for why a woman should have a child. We have no shortage of people in the world and the baby will never know it even existed, let alone was aborted. That's why I personally feel abortion is an issue each woman should decide for herself without being judged. From all the stories I have read over the years, abortion is by no means an easy physical or emotional process and it's not something women who have it take lightly.

Imagine if you were irresponsible and got an STD. I don't think we should have to live up to our irresponsibility and live with the STD. If there is a fix, take it.  Such is the same for abortions,. Notice that the group of cells  that is aborted is life, just as is any bacterial infection. The punishment for being irresponsible doesn't come in the form of jail, it's more like being shunned by society.. and all the health risks of constantly getting STDs or abortions.

Alright, so here's my rant on why I believe abortion is a woman's choice and business and NO ONE elses!
Everyone says sex should be between two people that "love" eachother. But who is to define what love is? Love is different to everyone.
For me, sex is just an activity. Like hiking. Or kniting.
I believe children should be for people that love eachother. I have grown up without a father because his selfish and unfaithful arse left after I was born. Think of all the children that suffer when something happens, like a divorce or remarriage. It's stressful. And my older siblings knew my father well, I was envious. No child should have to go through the pain of wondering "What the hell did I do wrong?"
I have had an abortion because I wasn't ready. I knew that. I knew if I had followed through, my depression and anger would be the death of a walking, talking, little poo-creator. I would rather be bashed for a month because of getting an abortion over getting bashed for years because my instability killed a child.
I am an athiest and all this religion bullshit is just ridiculous. It's like, if someone is afraid of something or they don't agree with something, they will shove their noses in a Bible and try to say it's against so and so's will.
Really?
When I am walking around and having sex, I am making that choice. If I don't want to be a mother, you damn better believe I will do everything to keep from being one.
Ladies, abortion isn't wrong. It can save lives. It's better the fetus dies while the nerves aren't developed than when a baby is getting strangled or something of that degree.
And if you don't want to be a mother, but you still don't want an abortion...get your tubes tied.
Atleast then you have the playground. Just not the nursery.

Being pro-life or pro-choice has no black and white answer. There are no logical arguments for either side because the other side can just come up with an equally valid argument to counter it and thus we keep going in circles.

It basically all boils down to your own personal beliefs about life and individual rights. Reading over different opinions with the blind hope that they will make a decision for you so you don't have to is a careless, shallow way to "choose a side" as you say.

Yes you need to be informed on the facts to develop your OWN opinion, but if you're going to choose a side simply because you were offended by someone's opinion and now you want to get back at them by choosing the other side you might as well just flip a coin to choose your stance. No one is going to be able to cite cold, hard facts that say whether or not you should be pro-life or pro-choice.

I do have an issue with point #2...

"...70,000 girls ages 15-19 die each year from pregnancy and childbirth..." 

Please make it clear that it is 70,000 girls worldwide.

The total number of maternal childbirth deaths in the U.S., of all ages of women, was less than 700 in 2010. I could not find a breakdown by age group. [Source: AlterNet]
http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/146076/two_women_a_day_die_giving_birth_in_america_--_and_many_of_these_deaths_can_be_prevented/

Please note that I do not disagree with the fundamental point of the article. High quality reproductive services, and choices, should always be accessible to all women. 

I just want to add that women who get abortions out of carelessness (ie unprotected sex) should be required to be sterilised. It is only my opinion, but go ahead and get your panties in a twist. Abortion is unnacceptable to me, but it is not something that we can control by banning it.  Women have been seeking abortions for centuries, and history has shown us that "black-market", "back-alley" abortions can be deadly and dangerous for both mother and fetus/baby.  The best thing we can do for society as a whole is make abortions accessible and safe for women.  As much as I disagree with the idea of abortion, we are all ultimately responsible for our own choices, actions, and decisions.  Why can't we ever stop trying to force our own opinions and beliefs into other peoples' lives?